It was reported in the Catholic online press today that our religious community, the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, has been assigned an Apostolic Commissioner by the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated life. Pope Francis has ordered the decree which goes into effect on August 12.
Pope Francis has also severely restricted our use of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, and this has been reported by a major italian journalist as a “contradiction” of Pope Benedict’s permission granted in the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum. This is an unfortunate instance of an overeager journalist sensationalizing something he can only speculate about.
The restrictions on our community are specific to us and have been put in place for reasons specific to us. Pope Francis has not contradicted Pope Benedict. The visitation of our community began under Pope Benedict and the Commission was recommended by Cardinal João Braz de Aviz who was appointed to the Congregation by Pope Benedict.
What is being reported in the press and what has actually transpired within our community over the course of a number of years are two different things.
Many of us—I would hope most of us—Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, welcome the Holy Father’s intervention into our life and trust fully that Holy Mother Church knows exactly what she is doing, even when the journalists do not. We entrust ourselves to her care, just as we do to the Immaculate.
Please pray for our Institute.
Many of the comments in the blogosphere about Pope Francis concerning his decision in regard to our Institute are simply disgraceful, and “justified” by the most tenuous rationalizations. He is the Vicar of Christ. It is less than twenty-four hours since this hit the Internet and so many think they have got it all figured out. I have also seen sheer fabrications about the situation in our Institute within some of these comments. May God have mercy on us. Thank God for all the holy popes we have had for the past fifty years, who all have had much to suffer.
I am closing down the comments now on these posts concerning the situation in the Institute. I left comments open to make a point, which the some of the commenters have made for me. Either you get the point or you don’t. There is no point in trying to explain it.
The contempt, disrespect and spirit of disobedience shown toward the Vicar of Christ, I repudiate. May God have mercy on us.
Could you explain to us why this is happening?
Father, is there any way you can give us more details? Rorate Caeli is sounding the alarms once again about Pope Francis and their readers are in condemnation mode. I figured there had to be more to this story than what they reported.
Kirt–Fr. Angelo has probably said as much as is prudent. A religious community is a family, and like family problems, issues in a religious community generally ought to stay at home.
That said, thank you for clarifying the news as much as your are able, Father.
If I have said it once, I have it twice, I do not like this new pope at all.
You are in the minority. Three million people just fell in love with Pope Francis last week! 🙂
Great news! Thank you Fr. Angelo for your courage!
I really don’t think Fr. can say much more. Higher ups have to say that stuff, and some of it is still in flux from the sounds of it.
This is a situation a lot of us won’t like, but I’m sure several otherwise good priests won’t like either. and really, I don’t think anyone is supposed to “like” these kinds of things. In the end all we can do is pray for everyone involved, and continue to live out our Christian lives properly.
Ditto, Marie. How very sad that someone, whom I assume is a Catholic, would publicly profess their dislike for the current Holy Father, chosen by the Holy Spirit for the Church. Why do so many people feel as if they have to critique every decision he makes, let alone express their dislike for him? NONE of us have the knowledge or graces he has been given. NONE of us know the exact circumstances under which he has made this strong decree, nor SHOULD we! We are not the pope! We, as Catholics, believe that he ALONE has the graces to lead the Church! God has given each of us a personal mission that we should attend to, and it is NOT to try to advise the Holy Father or publicy criiticize him. For heaven’s sake – if we as Catholics can’t stand behind the pope, who will?!
Thank you, Father Angelo, for clarifying what has been misrepresented by bloggers regarding this decree.
This is quite distressing and most likely a blow to the Order. I hope the fallout will not be too great. Most sad. But obedience to the Holy Father is necessary.
It is revenge for supporting of fr. Gheraldini.
BTW – Who is next on the black list: bp. Olivieri, bp. Rey, or bp Aillot? Who guess?
Thank you for posting about this very sensitive situation. I pray this will be a springboard for a renewed committment to the ideals of St. Francis for all of the friars and sisters, especially devotion to the Church and the Holy Father.
One question, what are the duties/responsibilities/authorities of the Apostolic Commissioner? Is he now practically the major superior of the institute?
You are absolutely incorrect. There is no guarantee the Holy Ghost “chooses” the pope. There is a narrow guarantee of infallibility once a man assumes the papacy.
High 5, ‘R’! 🙂
We as Catholics should be praying for unity. God gave us the gifts of two Mass forms; neither better than the other, just different. God is a Good Father….He knows what He is doing at all times, even when choosing the Vicar of Christ on Earth!
Obedience should always come first…
Prayer should come first, otherwise we wouldn’t know who we were being obedient to!
The Holy Virgin had to discern the archangel as a good messenger (spirit) before saying She was the “handmaid of the Lord”.
Prayers and a heartfelt plea to the Lord that these troubles will pass. Oremus pro invicem.
You are all in good hands — Our Lady’s hands. She will lead you to Her Son so as you carry this heavy cross you already know that the final destination will have made it all worth it.
I am so glad that the Holy See has responded so that you can move out of this holding pattern.
Justin – since we have no direct control ourselves over who becomes the pope, shouldn’t we have faith enough to entrust it to God? Is it every Catholic’s duty to continually monitor the pope for the slightest error – to continually worry about how he will act on this or that decision – to try to look for hidden meanings in his actions? We would quite obviously go crazy if we were all to do this! HE IS THE VICAR OF CHRIST ON EARTH! Can we not work from that common belief?
Your assertion of a “narrow band of infallability” infers that he can be ignored if he does not speak as a “lawgiver” ex cathedra. The Pope’s primary role is that of a universal pastor. You cannot ignore that pastoral dimension in the charge given him within the Church. To imagine that the Holy Spirit would leave the Church without a guide in these troubled times would be heretical at best. If you disagree with the direction in which he is leading the Church, you have to either assume that he does not have the graces to lead, or that he is acting with malintent against the wishes of God. Both would be extremely dangerous positions to hold! One thing is certain. YOU have not been given the graces to judge the Pope!
The pope may have disciplined the order but it’s not a private matter for the laity who attend parishes staffed by the FFI. They will have to elsewhere for the TLM. In short it’s simply clericalism to say its an internal matter (I.e. none of your business).
Thank you for telling us the truth, Fr. It’s very hard to get the truth from some of the ‘catholic’ online sites.
Eamonn got it right….” Oremus pro invicem.”
“Let us pray for one another.”
It has just been brought to my attention that another priest of the FI’s has blogged about the situation. He seems to have a very liberal interpretation of the Holy Father’s decree:
“But the fact is that Pope Francis has not forbidden the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite to the Franciscans Friars of the Immaculate. Simply put, after personally examining our situation and praying, he has decided that the ordinary form of the Sacred Liturgy for the FFI will be that of the ordinary form of the Roman Rite.”
He goes on to say that a priest in the Order may ask permission. I take it that since the Holy Father has said himself that the FI’s are not to say the EF of the Mass, this permission would not easily be granted – otherwise why would the Holy Father go to such an extreme in his decree?
He also mentions that they have already put a request in the mail for something that hasn’t actually even been enacted yet (takes effect after August 11)…
Shouldn’t there be a respect for the wishes of the Holy Father instead of an immediate desire to go against it? I was hoping so much to see docility and obedience to the Holy Father, but instead I am seeing resistance…which leaves me less surprised at the fact that Fr. Stefano has been suppressed and an Apostolic Commissary has been appointed.
Regarding who choses the Pope….
It is a heresy to imply that the Holy Spirit choses the Pope. No, He merely allows us to get the leaders we deserve.
Seriously, Jim?! So Christ was a liar?! “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church”?
“Holy obedience destroys every wish of the body and of the flesh and binds its mortified body to obedience of the Spirit and to obedience of ones brother and the person who possesses her is subject and submissive to all persons ion the word and not to man only but even to all beasts and wild animals….”
Obedience the toughest and most loving teacher in the Church.
Whereas, there are more than a few young people in the FFI b/c of their devotion to the TLM…and they got stabbed in the back today. Taking away the freedom to use the extraordinary form achieves nothing, solves nothing, helps nothing. Good Catholics who are reasonable see this and are saying so. Deal with it. Wrong is wrong, no matter who signs it.
Morningstar….lighten up. We’re a military family. Your choice of word, ‘commissary’ was funny.
OH! I get it, Marie! LOL!
Morningstarmedows it is not Catholic Teaching that the Holy Spirit explicitly picks the Pope. Here is an explanation from Pope Benedict as Cardinal Ratzinger on the matter.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected. This was his response:
“I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. … I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.”
“There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!”
Let us not forget to prayer for the Holy Founder of the FI who was removed from his office.
Oh, Noah – as a Third Order member of the Franciscans of the Immaculate, I pray morning and night for our founder and superior – and my prayers have intensified now for him.
I am amazed at how many wish to doubt the authority of this pope, using the excuse that he was chosen by mistake! The fact is that he WAS chosen, and has been given the graces he needs to fulfil this duty.
Did not Christ choose Judas? Did not the apostles, at Peter’s command, pray to the Holy Spirit and draw lots to choose Judas’ successor?
A good phrase coined by Dietrich von Hildebrand to remember is, “We obey, but we do not agree” in regards to some prudential decisions by a Pope. It is not part of Catholic ecclesiology to believe that a Pope’s prudential decisions are necessarily “guided by the Holy Spirit.” For instance, we do not have to believe that when the Pope completely suppressed the Jesuit Order in a previous century that was necessarily a wise or prudent decision. And this is one reason why we need to pray for the Pope.
Morningstar: 2 points
Noah : you’ve been bested
There is still hope. Pope Francis could change his mind. He is rumored to have told
Some members of the press on his flight back from Brazil, ” If a priest has extra ordinary
Form tendencies and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge”
Let us pray the FFI follow their tendencies.
LOL! Good one, Carolus!
morningstarmeadows, Noah was simply quoting Pope Benedict. And what is up with comparing Pope Francis to Judas Iscariat?
Marie, why are you trying to encourage a fight? What exactly is your problem with a fellow Catholic reminding us to pray for someone who may possibly be upset/hurt over being removed from his office?
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Morningstar, the days of docility and blind obedience are over. Respect is earned not demanded. The old and fully adult men who are cardinals and bishops have not been doing a good job these past 35 years. They deserve obedience but only the respect they rightfully earn from making good prudential decisions. We have not seen many of those in a long time.
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I think what JRSM said makes sense! Sometime ago I read something written by Fr. Gherardini. But honestly I didn’t like reading what Fr. Gherardini says about the II Vatican Council. It seems a denying of it. I’m not criticizing the Franciscan Friars, but I think their supporting to Fr. Gherardini makes a bad impression to some clergy in the Vatican. It’s just a speaculation, but I like thinking of Padre Pio’s life. He was misunderstand terriblly and at the end everything gets clery. I hope everything ends good for the FII. For me, you, dear Friars are an example of following the franciscan charism. May God help you!
Besides that, I’d like to add some thing more what I have said. Pope Benedict XVI tried hard to bring the tradicionalist back to the plenty communion with the Church, but they snobed the help of Pope Benedict XVI. Now I think it is natural that the current Pope, that is, Pope Francis make a backward movement. Life is this way, sometimes goes forth, sometimes goes backward. The Franciscan Friars always have been obdient religous,but the most of the tradicionalist have a great lack of trust in the Holy Father. So I think the FFI are paying for the erros of the others. (I don’t know if that expression makes sense in English. I’m translating literally a common portuguese expression: pagar pelos erros dos outros, that is, someone makes a mistake, but other innocent person has to repair the mistake of the guilty person.)
I was reading Fr. Z’s text about this case and I have noticed one comment that I think can clarify the situatiation a lot! See what he said:
“Moreover, the somewhat draconian restriction of the older Mass could have more to do with Card. Braz de Aviz than Pope Francis. We shall see.”
Card. Braz de Aviz is a diocesan bishop and not religious. So I think he is not the best person to deal with religious matters. You can see his curriculum here
Papa nomeia brasileiro Prefeito da Congregação dos Religiosos
“The restrictions on our community are specific to us and have been put in place for reasons specific to us”. So are you one of the little cowards who ran off to making complaints? …so Franciscans from other groups Capuchins OFM can do to you what they have done to themselves! Deform your charism and stop you getting vocations!
Talking of the Pope… why kiss the hand that beats you!! It is just appeases and encourages more beatings!
Reblogged this on Catholic4Life.
Some of the commentors on this blog are way out of hand with their assumptions/accusations.
None of you have the whole story.
For a particular agitator:
Writing patterns never change….even if the username does.
Personally, I think it is time to stand up for the Faith and if I was a Franciscan with a love for the Latin Mass I would jump ship to an order where there are no such restrictions at the moment. I go to both forms of the Mass but with abuses it is becoming increasingly harder to go to the Novus Ordo Mass.
Why can’t those who prefer the NO just leave the topic of the Latin Mass alone? It’s not like the traditionalist are trying to take their mass away from them! Nor are the traditionalist FORCING anyone to attend the Latin Rite. So what’s their beef and why do these NO people, who supposedly claim to be all loving and all accepting and all nicey-nice, why do they have to even get involved, or discuss the Latin Rite? Seems to me that since the Latin Rite folks simply go about their business of attending mass on Sunday, they should be left alone to worship as they so desire. Where’s their Tolerance!
“Many of us—I would hope most of us—Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, welcome the Holy Father’s intervention into our life”
Why? The Pope did not found your order. The Holy Father does not have a special charism to make golden everything he touches. Shouldn’t the choices for your community come from your general superior and not from a select few appealing to higher powers?
Praying for you.
Wow. I’m sensing some serious rebellion on some of your comments. You know, 25 years ago or so I considered joining an evangelical church and leaving the Catholic Church. My husband, in his wisdom, suggested that we spend a bit more time learning about the Catholic Faith before we bailed — since we were so poorly catechized. Do you know what ultimately kept me Catholic? The teaching or position of the Pope! Without a Pope and Holy See, it becomes ‘to each his own’. That’s what Protestantism is. To suggest that the religious orders are NOT ultimately under the Holy See is to want schism or Protestantism imho. In fact, it’s partially why our Church is in the mess she’s in!!! We’ve had nuns off doing their own thing and no longer obedient to Rome. We have religious groups doing the same thing —- the buck needs to stop somewhere, no? Perhaps our Holy Father is trying to gently pull in the reins.
I am going to make the assumption that there is a lot more that has been going on behind the scenes of this ‘story’ than these precious little articles have displayed. It’s always so easy to make an assessment (I have been known to do the same thing so I’m not wagging my finger) because we THINK we have the whole picture, when in fact we do not. My first reaction to all of this was utter confusion as to whether this was going to be a good thing or not. Then I took a day to reflect and came to the realization that the sky is not falling!!! We need to take a chill pill.
“Many of the comments in the blogosphere about Pope Francis concerning his decision in regard to our Institute are simply disgraceful, and “justified” by the most tenuous rationalizations.”
Thankfully, we have your pure-as-the-wind-driven-snow comments (and actions) to balance them out.
jvc…..I suggest you read the new comments on CNA.
Thank God this doesn´t happen in Orthodoxy. One does not simply ban the Holy Sacrifice. No Novus Ordo, no Pope, no these kind of tragedies.
My prayers for the true Catholics affected by this.
There is no way to sugarcoat this horrific, evil decision by Francis. Thousands of Catholics who had access to the Traditional Latin Mass last week will be unjustly denied it this week. Lefebvre was right. No compromise with modernism is possible. It is Rome that must rediscover the Catholic Faith.
“Thank God for all the holy popes we have had for the past fifty years, who all have had much to suffer.”
Is this some kind of sick joke?
One would have to be astonishingly ignorant of Church history to think the Holy Ghost chooses the Pope. So He chose Pope Stephen VI, who ordered the digging up and desecration of the dead body of Pope Formosus? Both popes were the will of the Holy Spirit? This is silly.
And yes, it is perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to be quite appalled at the leftism of the current Pope. Yes, he is against abortion. One would think this would be the very least we should expect from a pope.
His liturgical tin ear, his implicit condemnation of all his predecessors with his high-profile “humility,” his Paul VI economics, his lecturing of Catholic traditionalists while winking at the world, is nauseating and unacceptable.
Thomas Woods, thank you for the voice of reason!
Father, aren’t you one of the ones most opposed to the TLM and most resistant and who asked for the visitation? The founder of your order has been removed. Now what? And the priests who supply the TLM to various parishes: will they be able to continue or will the faithful who attend that safe and reverent Mass be denied? And if permissions by those outside the order are not given, then the fallout will happen. And it will not just be a slap against the FI but against all those who do wish to have access to the EF.
Yes and maybe, 3 million people have fallen in love with this pope and what about the rest of the one billion Catholics? Please get real Bernard. This pope is a total disaster for the Roman Catholic Church.
This Institute has no obligation to tell any of us the internal details. The reports seem to be petty gossip and those wanting salacious details would do better to spend their time in prayer for these good people. Pray for the Institute, the Holy Father and his representatives. As Father wrote, let us trust Holy Mother Church. Internal legal matters must be allowed to be worked through.
This is the result of doing things without permission from the Holy See, the FFI swifts to Tridentine Liturgy… (as well as praying the Breviary in Latin) without mandate from the Holy See.
To be modernists or liberalists or extremists, sedevacantists, traditionalists, & etc……VERY DANGEROUS! This is NOT the mind of the Mother Church. Sad to hear that many Sisters become imbalanced because of this Tridentine Liturgy imposed to them. We have to pray that the Founder may enlightened by the true light of the Holy Spirit.
The Nervous Disorder is to blame, when will we as Catholics realize this.
‘MSM’…..your time is running out! 🙂
BTW, the 1:35 post is not mine.
As an educated catholic, who is part of ‘Mother Church’, I know what I am saying.
Your explanation, FI, is not good enough. . Francis is wrong to do this – and he can be legitimately disobeyed. He is an anti-Fatima disgraceful pope. A sodomite-friendly pope.
Well said , Bernard. This pope Francis is a slovenly, dumbed-down disgrace.
The Pope is “only” the Vicar of Christ. It is his duty to protect the faith and the sacraments. Benedict wrote that the old mass was never forbidden. So it is now forbidden for a certain group, in clear contradiction to Summorum Pontificum? Can we immagine that the new form of the holy mass could be forbidden for liberal groups? Of course not. But we accept it blindly in case of the friars.
Everybody cool it.
the history of the church have several antipopes who held the seat vicar of Christ. Look at the Borgias.
Wow…how very sad to see the more traditionally inclined smear the Holy Father with such ugliness and be so self-righteous about it. I have the impression based on the many negative, vile commentary, against the Holy Father, that the TLM is their golden calf. I understand why Fr. Z has seen fit to give his opinions on such crass behavior from fellow Catholics on his blog.
I am left wondering how one could receive the Lord in the Holy Eucharist, how one could
worship him in such a beautiful liturgy and still spill so much venom. I remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ now as I type this, “It is not what goes in but what comes out of the heart of man that defiles him.” Matthew 15:18-20
Fr. F, I will be praying for all of you so that what needs to happen will happen in faith and in hope and in charity. I am also praying that the graces needed for wisdom and prudence be granted to those in authority during this trying time. I am in no position to judge about what has happened or why but instead give benefit of doubt to all concerned.
I know that the Lord and his blessed Mother will assist in sorting it all out.
God bless you and your wonderful community.
Dear Father Angelo,
It is amazing the abuse you take from the rad-trads. The only thing that will satisfy them would be the abrogation of Vatican II (impossible), the elimination of the ordinary form of the Mass (will not happen), end of ecumenical efforts (what of the wonderful Anglican Ordinariate), the cancellation of the canonization of Blessed John Paul the Greatest (I have read blogs where rad-trads are praying for this; I wish they would read Witness To Hope: The Biography of Pope John Paul II by George Weigel so that they can understand the heroic virtue of this brilliant Pope, who will also be a Doctor of the Church someday), and the quick demise of Pope Francis. The exemplary obedience and love shown by the saints to the Vicars of Christ seem to have no place in the hearts of the rad-trads.
I’m not a Franciscan of the Immaculate, but I am a Franciscan, Franciscan Brothers of Life. I’m stunned by the negativity and the audacity in these posts. As Franciscans we vow obedience to the Church. We enter the Franciscan family to follow the Gospel by walking in the steps of St. Francis, not to celebrate one form or another of the mass. You join the FSSP for that. This is an internal matter of each Franciscan institute. And no it’s not clericalism. People who attach themselves to a religious community, be it at a parish, school, or some other venue, must understand that the community has a charism. It’s founder left it a vision and a mission. In order to serve the Church it must be faithful to that vision and mission. This may mean that the community will do or not do something that the lay faithful find distressing. At the end of the day, the friars first order of fidelity is to their fraternity. Without love and obedience to their fraternity, their ministry to the lay faithful loses a great deal. It’s the Franciscan touch that gives it its flavor, not the form of the mass. For those who are concerned about clericalism, let me remind you that the Franciscan family was never intended to be an order of clerics. Those who are overly focused on what the friar priest can and cannot do are engaging in clericalism, because they are forgetting that there are thousands of Franciscan men and women who are not priests and whose voice must be heard, because they too are part of the great family. We Franciscans try to respond to the popes as did our seraphic father.
Dear Povero Friar, The Franciscans have been riddled with divisions since the begining because you are alawys trying to outdo eachother in humility and poverty which is fake. If you are not an FFI keep quiet. This group exists in CONTRAST to your own. Also please stop saying “you only follow orders”. Its called Nurenburg defence. Following the Church is not a game of “Simon Says”. “WE” are you speaking for others now? So humble!!! The FFI are not like your group of quisllings and that is why they are admired. As for those in the FFI who caused this trouble please please just go to anothe “Franciscan” group where you can find what you want . As you know the number of different Franciscan groups that exist is a mystery known only to God!
Also while St Francis was a deacon the Mass he knew and herad was the Extraordinary Form not a Bugnini creation!
John Fisher — I am blown away by your comments. As Catholic Christians we are ALL called to great love (charity) to one another. I do not see Christ in your comments to Brother Jay one bit. Most of us on this site have been blessed by the Franciscans of the Immaculate and care deeply about this situation. However, St. Francis himself must be rolling in the grave at the mean-spiritedness that is being vomited out due to this. If nothing else, these angry and un-Christian comments from so many are proving that something really wrong was occurring within the FFI community (amidst all the good that was also occurring). God forgive us all.
One thing is for sure, WE lay people do NOT have all the facts on this matter and we are NOT in a position to make any decisions on it. We need to trust that the Holy Spirit is alive and well! We need to trust that Holy Mother Church will take care of it all. We need to zip our mouths and just PRAY. Just pray.
Brother Jay spoke volumes with great charity. Thank you.
As for the commentor spewing hate like vomit perhaps you might read St James’ Gospel on controling the tongue (Chap 3).
I would also suggest reading Psalm 131 (Humble Trust in God)
We should be sympathizing with the men and women in the FI Order. This can’t be what they had hoped for when the entered the community. They need our prayers and sacrifices right now, not contempt!
God bless you, Marie! Maybe some of us could all work at fasting and praying on their behalf.
Did Christ wear a fiddleback on the night He instituted the Holy Eucharist? Was there incense? Was there sacred music? No.
It’s not about the form of the Mass, the externals, as much as its about the response to the graces received by attending the Holy Sacrifice! And from what I am reading the response to the graces is being wasted in favor of personal attacks on a FI priest who does NOT deserve it!
God desires mercy!
Hello guys! The Pope knows what he’s been doing, and what he’s been doing is absolutely right. We, lay… must stop criticizing or catechizing the Pope! God allows the Pope to restrict the FFI celebrating the Tridentine Mass and Liturgy because there is a very specific reason for it. But this is not only their problems and it’s not our business. We have to pray that God will show the true light and be guided by the Holy Spirit, to those who are involved in this problem. We have to pray that Our Blessed Lady will give true humility and true honesty to the higher superiors of the FFI in rome.
Many of us realize that this is the work of the devil…..divide and conquer. Satan is very military minded, too.
God bless you!
I like the way you think. 🙂
Let’s remember anything small done with great love is pleasing in God’s eyes (Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and St Therese).
I have learned, by being the mother of a special chilld, that the best crosses are the ‘designer’ crosses God sends to us. Accepting those with joy is not only expidites our sanctity, but assists those souls who are in great need of graces!
Ave Maria! Have a great day!
There have been a lot of prelates who “knew” what they were doing too these last 50 years. Look at the fruits of their prudential decisions. We will just have to wait and see if this is a good one or if its like most of the rest and leads to the fruits of the rest as well…
“As for the commentor (sic) spewing hate like vomit”
Heal thyself, Marie. Really. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they “spew hate like vomit.”
And people think only the comments on Rorate go to far …
Just recently, when asked, by a Russian journalist, about the 1025th Anniversary of the Baptism of the Kievan Russ —- Pope Francis of Rome said the following:
“The Orthodox have conserved that pristine liturgy, no?” Pope Francis says. “So beautiful. We Latin Christians have lost a bit the sense of adoration, they conserve it, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time does not count. The center is God and that is a richness that I would like to emphasize on this occasion as you ask me this question.”
Hopefully Pope Francis will allow for the continued recovery of OUR pristine liturgy…and not just sweep it under the rug. We will see. Jesuits always seem to love the Eastern Liturgies but not like our own Roman Rite. I would say the old phrase “familiarity breeds contempt” but the older phrase “As useless as Jesuit during Holy Week” seems to be the one with real currency in this situation…
I guess we will just have to wait and see.
Dear John Fisher,
Thank you for your comment in response to Brother Jay. You say:
“If you are not an FFI keep quiet.”
So, since you don’t stay quiet, then you must be an FFI. Interesting! Are you a 3rd order or a friar? Then you say:
“The FFI are not like your group of quisllings and that is why they are admired [such humility and holy docility, John]. As for those in the FFI who caused this trouble please please just go to anothe “Franciscan” group where you can find what you want . As you know the number of different Franciscan groups that exist is a mystery known only to God! [and with an uncharitable, divisive mentality like yours you are sure to make even more.]
Also while St Francis was a deacon the Mass he knew and herad was the Extraordinary Form not a Bugnini creation!” [Your respect for Vatican II and its liturgy is so … heartening]
So, again, thank you – for giving us the clearest scoop yet on the nature of the problem that the friars “who caused this trouble” are up against and which side is the true cause of the problem. With such an elitist, divisive, anti-magisterial mentality present in their midst no wonder 80% of the friars are happy that the Vatican is intervening (Google “CNA – decree worries traditionalists”).
John Fischer is right and VII and its artificially cobbled together by committee liturgy was a vast prudential and administrative mistake by the prelates of their time and in the 40 years since then. What a mess.
I’m not going to judge the Pope or the case of the Franciscans, of which I do not know enough. What I do know is that the NO masses are very prone to abuses and everyone knows it as well. I heard that nowhere does the Church authorize ad populum masses (with the priest facing the people); in spite of that, ad populum became the norm, which is, to my week and young faith, quite scandalous. Scandalous I say! The Church remains the Church, but it is hurt by it – and so am I.
And of course we can disagree with the Pope. Do you think that making Cesar Borgia a cardinal was a good choice from Alexander VI?
Oh! and by the way, please read this: http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com.br/2013/07/stop-shooting-messenger-please.html.
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Patrick, why is it that it is always the same radical traditionalists that come to the defense of the FFIs removed by the Vatican? It seems to lend a lot of credence to the CNA article that the same radical thinking set in among those in charge in the FFI, that Vatican II is the cause of all the problems in the modern Church.
This error may hold some water looking at Europe and the US which has had its problems in recent decades but it seems the exact opposite happened in South America, Africa, and Asia where vocations are shooting through the roof since that liturgy was “artificially cobbled together by committee”. Perhaps it is the new materialism that has increased so much in old Christian lands and not so much so in the third world that explains the difference.
So maybe the poverty of the Franciscans as mentioned by Br. Jay above is more the answer for our times than all this old lace and pomp from the past. Maybe the only place that John Fisher has it right is that the FFI are, indeed, admirable in that 80% of them saw through this mistake. That truly is an amazing number. What was it for the Legionaries of Christ? I thought it was a much fewer were favorable to the Vatican move.
Thomas, I do not know why the same “radical traditionalists” come to the defense of the FFIs removed by the Vatican any more than I know why its the same “radical neo-modernists” that are applauding their removal. I am not a radical traditionalist. I hope you aren’t one of those radical neo-modernists. I hope instead you are just uninformed. VII was the product of the prelates of the 1960s. That was a corrupt pastoral generation that afflicted our Church and societies for too many decades. Their incompetence on prudential and administrative matters have crippled our societies and Church. Their inability to even say mass regularly in a devout manner is just a hallmark of their laziness. The errors of the modern Church are the direct result of the prelates of that generation and their hand picked successors until even today. They have been in charge THE WHOLE TIME. They fouled it up. They watched the new materialism that you mentioned sweep in and did nothing. They allowed the lavender mafia to exist world wide. They allowed the terrible children scandals to exist world wide. They ran the Vatican’s bank for decades. They were in charge of ALL seminaries and religious orders in every country. Its not the traditionalists who were in charge or running any of these orders, seminaries, banks, or dioceses. The traditionalists were exiled forcibly. Thank goodness for that or there would be no seed to replant. Thank goodness for the Ecclesia Dei religious communities that sprang from the seed of SSPX.
I think you are grandly mistaken on South America. That is a dying continent going the way of Europe. In 1965 Brazil was over 91% Catholic. Today it is 73% “nominal” Catholic according to the CIA World Fact Book. Argentina was the same case in 1965 today it is “less than 20% practicing” today. Africa seems to be doing okay religiously for a continent comprised entirely of failed nation states. Asia? The problems of the Catholic Church in China, Vietnam, and Japan are not a symptom of success. Only South Korea and the Philippines have a decent chance of doing well and the Philippines have a civil war going with the Muslim tribes and are a historically failed state. Those two countries are certainly not able to keep Asia afloat alone.
As for the Legionaries of Christ that is also a Novus Ordo order founded, approved, and sustained by the VII generation. I know about them. I grew up in their schools and spent time in Connecticut in their minor seminary. They will die due to their self-inflicted wounds. I will tell you that their Founder is NOTHING like the FFI’s Founder.
B16 couldn’t fix everything but he did a lot better than JP2 and Paul6. I think Francis might be trying for the JPII mold. Thats a step back. And like I said earlier:
Just recently, when asked, by a Russian journalist, about the 1025th Anniversary of the Baptism of the Kievan Russ —- Pope Francis of Rome said the following:
“The Orthodox have conserved that pristine liturgy, no?” Pope Francis says. “So beautiful. We Latin Christians have lost a bit the sense of adoration, they conserve it, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time does not count. The center is God and that is a richness that I would like to emphasize on this occasion as you ask me this question.”
Hopefully Pope Francis will allow for the continued recovery of OUR pristine liturgy. Its not just about old lace and pomp. Its about adoring the Divine Majesty. Thomas get a 1962 Missal and go to the order of Mass and PRAY the prayers and then tell me that the NOVUS ORDO is more reverent, beautiful, or edifying. Do what Pope St Pius X said to do with regard to the prayers of the Tridentine Mass:
“If you wish to participate in the Mass actively, you must follow with your eye, heart and mouth all that happens on the altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens at the altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”
Do that with the missal of Pope John XXIII and then comparatively do it with the missal of Paul VI. Then you will finally see what the tempest is about. God bless you and you family.
Bravo! Thomoas. Bravo!
The CNA article mentions ‘a few in power’. What do you suppose the logical response is going to be when they lose their power? Fight ‘like a chained dog’. 🙂
They that exalt themselves will be humbled….and they who were humbled will be exalted! 🙂
(written with lots of joy in my heart)
No I am not an FFI. The fiction you weave is quite funny! Could someone find out what soap the Pope uses and how he brushes his teeth so we call all do it as well. Truely God must want us to follow his example in everything! Some people justify everything as a fiat accompli. Oh if the Pope does it it must be correct. I am afriad the Pope is subject to the same canon law and norms any Catholic is. If the Pope puts a ball on an altar it is just odd! Yes it is odd and quite sacriligous. There is something quite sick about this attitude. Be honest everyone. The last 50 years has been a period in which authority in the Church has abused the average Catholic. It has traded on our trust and deeply confused us. Many Catholics have given up through a combination of their own vices and the abuse of Church Authority. We are not able to say as any adult would..the Pope makes mistakes! He does. He appoints unworthy bishops. his intellect can be bias by ignorance, weakness and misinformation.
The New Mass is a Frankenstein’s monster and we must oppose it. It was not waht the bishops at the council wanted. It was created by loaded committee of vain self important men (now dead) and FORCED on us. It is not the Traditional Mass in the venacular. If it was it would be better than what we have!
What we are dealing with is power. The Pope finds it hard to accept a terrible mistake was made when Bugnini mislead and manipulated Paul VI into approving this creation with no precedent! Authority will resist having it pointed out its acts were wrong.
Be honest Francis is one of those priests who were formed in the 1960’s. He is a conglomeration of what he was taught and the groovy hippie sandanista 1960’s. When he is dead a new generation that can evaluate the past in a less personality cult way will have power. Hopefully things will be better.
You stated:”Thank God for all the holy popes we have had for the past fifty years, who all have had much to suffer.”
Hmmm, wouldn’t you mean,” Thank God for all the holy popes we have had for the past 2000 years, who all have had much to suffer.” Why would you only say the last 50 years?
Patrick, any response that takes that long is inevitably weak. I only got this far before I started yawn:
“VII was the product of the prelates of the 1960s. That was a corrupt pastoral generation that afflicted our Church and societies for too many decades.”
Completely gratuitous statement proven false by the a basic faith an trust in God which we all should have that He will not leave us orphans and the obvious good fruit that has come about since VII in the continents I mentioned above.
Thomas I can’t help your lack of will, interest, or lack of historical perspective. The Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy lasted 69 years and 7 popes. The Modernist maelstrom unleashed by the prelates of VII has lasted 48 years so far. I figure the Lord will let us simmer in our own juices until about 2031 if history repeats itself. Either way it doesn’t matter to you. Its too boring.
“One would have to be astonishingly ignorant of Church history to think the Holy Ghost chooses the Pope. So He chose Pope Stephen VI, who ordered the digging up and desecration of the dead body of Pope Formosus? Both popes were the will of the Holy Spirit? This is silly.”
Honestly, I do not know the theology behind the choosing of the pope; whether the Holy Spirit chooses him or not. But I do know that Christ chose Judas to be one of the twelve. To judge that God could not have chosen someone solely based on actions of that individual seems silly.
Witnessing the reactions to this ordeal is helping me to understand why the pope deemed it necessary to suppress the extraordinary form in this case. The untempered vitriol that has been continually spewing, not only since this was announced but even before, can have only indicated to the holy father that radical traditionalism is a significant problem. It seems reasonable for anyone to assume that this kind of radical traditionalism has been pronounced in some significant way within the FI, given that they have been singled out. If this kind of behavior continues from that block within the Church as a whole, I would not be at all surprised if the EF is eventually suppressed in the entire Church.
That is true Steve. It must be very surprising to you and others that folks fight back nowadays. You all had a good 40 years without competition. You wasted your chance at good governance. Now that the place is in shambles people don’t sit idly in the pews waiting for competence to magically appear. They now demand it in accordance with Matthew 11:12. “From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent bear it away.”
Go ahead. Suppress the Roman Rite again. I dare your ilk to do it again.
Enjoy your posts, Steve. 🙂
Here’s a long essay written by a known Cardinal on Vatican II. I’m a little less ignorant on the topic after having read this:
From Ratzinger to Benedict
Avery Cardinal Dulles
Patrick, honestly, I’m shaking my head. You haven’t the slightest idea what you’re talking about, but your post is a precise example of it. You can cut on yourself all you want, and I could exhort you to stop, but in the end all I really can do for you is watch you bleed.
Alas, you will never cease to shake your head and scoff. The “auto-demolition of the Church” continues unabated except in certain remote island like communities. The FFI was one such island. We will see if you get your way. I don’t doubt that you will.
Meant to say, “but your post is a precise example of what I am talking about.”
Patrick, Mia Culpa or however you spell it. Your response deserved better, but it is true, I have heard it all before. My point is not that S America, etc. is perfect, after all, the materialism has increased there as well. More to the point, that the relative lack of materialism explains the relative lack of problems whereas the change in liturgy does not and the numbers of vocations are indeed, off the charts. Fighting that grand fight against materialism is more in line with the Franciscan thing, right? And since liturgy is more a Benedictine thing let them do that. And I can certainly understand the frustration of Franciscans losing there focus in this regard. I guess with the FI there is the more Marian thing as well which must be kept in focus. Materialism wont go away by a bishop waving his hand. It is the grand tsunami of or time. Although there is much to be done to improve reverence at the Mass, this was a problem before VII, just ask Padre Pio and the old liturgy is not a magic pill and in my opinion not the central issue.
Thomas, a last reply regarding the liturgy from a wonderful priest:
“My constant drumbeat has been that for any effort of New Evangelization to bear long-lasting fruit, we must revitalize our sacred liturgical worship of God. Nothing we do to renew the Church will last unless we get our liturgical house in order. Renewal of our sacred worship is the sine qua non. It is not the only thing, but it is that activity “without which… FAIL.”
I happen to agree with that priest.
The Meaning of Vatican II
Fr Robert Barron
The ‘Armchair Quarterbacks’ might read “My Journal of the Counsil” by Yves Congar
Dominican Priest presiding at the Vatican II Counsil
Who is the priest you’re quoting, Patrick?
The priest who blogs at http://www.wdtprs.com
Enjoyed reading your rebuttals, Thomas. God bless you.
Continued prayers for the Franciscans of the Immaculate… Ave Maria!
The liturgy is a problem. Francis rightly praises the East and its mystical worship. Which is holy Tradition. Yet when it comes to the liturgy of the Latin Rite which predates Constantinople and was in use until 43 years ago he just does not grasp it. When he puts a ball on the top of an altar (which represents Christs body). When he behaves like Justin Bieber or a Hollywoord star are we not to baulk. The Catholic Church is not the Pope’s property and it is not his to play with or use. Enough is enough! You would think senior clergy would challenge him.
WE I want authentic, real, stable, continuity. I want to know the Church out stays these passing times and has antiquity on its side. Not that I go to a Mass made up in 1970, take communion on my unwashed hands and jump around like a lunatic. I want faith that isn’t based on feelings and is bigger than me.
This new Pope is well meaning but facile!
Without continuity the Faith is useless. You would think the Pope would get Christ was incarnate about 2000 years ago IN THE PAST. Using his logic we should throw it all out to be modern and to be loved. Religion is not infatuation and it is not a feeling or being kewl. It isn’t mass hysteria or silly dances and adulation.
Salt of the Earth (Ratzinger, 1997)
“I am of the opinion, to be sure, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It’s impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it suddenly declares that what until now was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent.”
If you want to see th NO done well google Fr. Rick Heilman. He started the Knights of Divine Mercy. His masses are beautiful and ad orientem and everything.
The issue is not just “how it is done” the issue is the New Eucharistic Prayers, the new prefaces, sensoring and removal of “negtive concepts” from prefaces. The removal of much that was ancient + apostolic tradition. Remember how many hundreds of popes preserved and protected the Mass and liturgy only to have it all swept away by a committee headed by Annibale Bugnini!
Spirit of the Liturgy (Ratzinger, 2000)
“For fostering a true consciousness in liturgical matters, it is also important that the proscription against the form of liturgy in valid use up to 1970 should be lifted. Anyone who nowadays advocates the continuing existence of this liturgy or takes part in it is treated like a leper; all tolerance ends here. There has never been anything like this in history; in doing this we are despising and proscribing the Church’s whole past. How can one trust her at present if things are that way?”
Yes you are ABSOLUTELY correct. Keep it up! We can’tlet ourselves be deprived again! My Lord not just giving up has been hard!!!!
Francis wants a dumbed down, liturgically unexciting church with plain vestments, pedestrian ceremonies along “Unitarian” lines. What would the Orthodox say? They would be against any modernization of their liturgy, but what about Rome? Rome doesn’t seem to care–the plainer and more Protestant-looking the Mass, the better. Tragic! Thank God for Orthodoxy!
You know, I’m really beginning to believe that when and if I am martyred someday, it will be at the hands of the radical traditionalists, not secular society…
I do hope you get the grace of martyrdom. The sooner the better. Your chance at eternal salvation will be much improved. I also wish the same for myself as well. 🙂
Stockholm syndrome at its finest.
Fred, you have it backward. From what I see, it is the neo Catholics who have a vile hatred in their heart. This incident is just one example. You had a flourishing Trad group, and the vile neo Catholics couldn’t stand their success. Their hatred springs from their guilt in refusing to fight. No Fred, you have nothing to fear from Trads. Your kind is irrelevant. Trads view the novus ordo as a comedic sideshow. It is dying. It has contracepted itself to death and its priests are dying from AIDS. Trads meanwhile have more baptisms than funerals and our seminaries are bursting at the seams. This is a setback, to be sure. But we have the numbers and the Faith. Neo Catholics only have their funerals.
No Fred. The traddys are going to end up eating each other before they have a chance to get to you and me. But look out for the Iapetan starship chemtrails.
I was re-reading SP today and while it was the hoped that the EF would bring about healing and end to divisions for those attached to it, that certainly does not seem to be the case.
Be assured of my prayers.
Thank you for your prayers Mary. If you have read SP then you will also me interested in reading the follow-on document, Universae Ecclesiae, which implements it. B16 was forced to have that one written due to the incredible lack of charity towards traditionalists by those in power.
And if you are truly interested: Quo Primum by Pope St Pius V. His intent seems CLEAR and CONCISE.
I am sorry for messing up your name Mariam in that last post. Please forgive me.
I think we need some understanding here. If we really want to be understanding and loving, we need to understand each others point of view.
Honestly, I can understand how Traditionalists get so riled up about this kind of thing. Those of us who remember what it was like in the Church prior to 1970, remember lots of nuns teaching at the Catholic School, any child could afford to go to Catholic School, a beautiful Mass that made you feel really close to God and Heaven, people showing true reverence and respect for the Church, the altar, and Jesus in the Eucharist, very faithful and loving relatives who were all strong Catholics, knowing that you were Catholic and proud of it, knowing that when there was an Imprimitur in a Catholic book, it was the truth, etc.
Compare that to now, no nuns teaching in the Catholic Schools, Children being taught false doctrines in Catholic School, children going into Catholic college as strong Catholics and coming out of Catholic Colleges as atheists, Masses where you compare the quality of your high school assembly to it and the quality of the high school assembly wins and is more reverent, not being able to pray either before mass or after it because of all the loud talking and laughing in the nave, the only time you see someone bow to the offer is when they bow down to pick up the dollar they were going to put in the basket, the last time you saw a cross or statue of Mary in a relatives home was when you were watching Boys Town on there TV with them. The lasts time you saw them do the sign of the Cross was in an old film from the 1950s, the last time you read a Catholic book with an imprimitur, it said Jesus was just a fictional Character made up by power hungery ancient Jews. We don’t know any of our cousins or siblings that are still Catholic. A full 80% of Catholic no longer go to mass, 90% of those who do, don’t believe something that the Church teaches, 80% of our religious have left their vocation, the destruction is amazing.
Honestly, in your average Catholic Church, if you ask them if they believe in the Churches stand on divorce and remarriage, contraceptives, or married priests, 95% will disagree with at least one of them, if not all. At the same time, if you asked these same three questions in 1960, 95% would have agreed with the Churches teaching.
The only place I ever see the Catholic Church I knew as a child is when I visit an FSSP parish. I love the Catholic Church as it has been know for at least the last 1500 years, not the modern version we see today. I love the large families where you will rarely find someone divorced. I love the reverence, the willingness to die for Jesus Christ and his Church.
Now, with there are a few Traditional Latin Mass parishes, and at these we see the strong faith and traditions of the Catholic Church of 1950 years. We finally have back what we lost in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. Why would anyone not expect them to get upset when they think that someone will take that all away from them again.
Donatus — I like your charitable style! I stopped responding to any of these comments as of late because, quite honestly, they have made me sick to my stomach and brought me to literal tears with the nastiness that they portray! So, since you took the time to be charitable, I thought I’d take the time to respond.
1. Many of us who frequent this blog are quite frustrated by the state of the ‘modern’ Church. I, myself, am sad at the immodest dress, the lack of genuflecting before Our Lord in the Tabernacle, the clapping and hand-holding that goes on during Mass.
2. As you mentioned, it’s disturbing that 80percent of Catholics do not believe in much of the teachings any longer. It’s disheartening to have so many relatives that no longer go to weekly Mass, who are divorced, living in sin, have had tubals or vasectomies, etc etc.
3. Many Catholic colleges and k-12 schools should just do us all a favor and remove the word ‘Catholic’ from their title because it’s scandalous.
Where we differ is that we don’t think the TLM is the be all end all! What you’re finding at these Masses you attend is that all the ‘conservative’ Catholics who were sprinkled in the various parishes come to worship in this one place. These families were already committed to their Faith before arriving at the steps of a church with TL Masses. It’s like the Evangelical churches where everyone is on fire for their faith! They were on fire BEFORE they got there — but wait and see what happens a generation or two down the road. The culture grabs at these kids just like it grabs at all of our kids!
The problem is THE CULTURE. I listened to a priest recently who was raised in an atheist household. (He’s probably in his 60’s now.) Anyway, he said that his atheist father was more ‘moral and devout’ than the average Catholic or Protestant is today!!! The problem isn’t which Mass one attends!!
Do I think we need to clean up the liturgical abuses that have been taking place? Oh, yes. PLEASE. Do I think that priests need to be better catechized and some of them need to be shown the door out? Yep, sadly. Do I think if all the churches started having only TLMasses that suddenly all of these wayward priests and parishioners would embrace all of the Church’s teachings? NO WAY JOSE. NO WAY. Oh my goodness, I cannot even IMAGINE the volcanic eruption that would consume us all!
Rome is proceeding cautiously as She should!!! We need to fast, pray and be patient.
Thanks Jennifer, Actually I agree with about 90% of what you say. I will say though that about half of the folks I know at the TLM I attend are second or third generation TLM Catholics. Sadly, these families were SSPX prior to coming over to the FSSP parish I sometimes attend. When I ask about their children, there are very few who tell me that one of their children has left the faith. The ‘worst’ that some of them have to say about a ‘wayward’ child is that they married a Catholic that doesn’t like the Latin mass so they go to a very conservative Novus Ordo parish. Yes, the culture effect their kids but it seems that the longer they keep them out of the mainstream culture, the better their chances are of staying Catholic. What I mean by that if they go to College, it is ‘Newman Society’ approved college, home schooling or very conservative Catholic School. I do go to daily novus ordo masses and serve at them when possible.
Where I differ from you is in that I have what I call a Catholic world view. It is simply this. I believe that their is one organization that God works through and it is the Catholic Church. That Church has enormous influence on the world around it. The greater the spirituality of its members, the greater effect its prayers have on the world around it. But we do see the Culture coming into the Catholic Church even 100 to 150 years ago. Catholics were not perfect even in the 1940s, just look how easily the average Catholic in Germany rolled over for Hitler despite the Churches fight against Hitler.
I don’t believe that the Catholic Church ended at Vatican II or any of that type of thinking. I think there has been a rot in the Catholic Church for over a century and the things that happened in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s were just the symptoms of that rot.
But, for most of those that I know that attend the TLM, they started off as lukewarm Catholics and through the attendance at the FSSP parish have found a new depth of faith. Is it completely because of the Latin Mass? NO. Do I believe that the Liturgy is the center of our faith and effects our spirituality, yes because of how the TLM mass has increased my spirituality well beyond what it was with the Novus Ordo. Many of those who go to the FSSP parish will tell you the same thing.
When I say the Liturgy, I mean the whole thing, the reverence of the mass, the power of the sermon, the beauty of the Gregorian Chant, the beauty of the church, the beauty of the altar, the reverence of those attending, etc. I have heard of Novus Ordo churches that achieve a similar type of spirituality to the FSSP parishes, but as their are no FSSP parishes close to where I live, there also are no reverent masses in the city I live in.
God Bless our Holy Church and Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!
Why are TLM so passionate about the Latin traditions with a small “t”? Maybe it’s because we have men of the cloth who can’t do their job on the NO side. Rhode Island celebrates the inception of legalized gay marriage today! The mayor, a Catholic, was one of the first to be the officiant who married to gay men! Where’s the bishop of RI on this matter? Better yet, the mayor’s still a Catholic in good standing who will prance right up to communion on Sunday, and I have to be subjected to sacrilegious communions! Nancy Pelosi, Justice Kennedy, Mario Cuomo, Joe Biden, Kathleen Kathleen Sebelius, John Kerry! Come on down!
Oh my gosh! What is it that you NO’s DON”T get about the fact that we want to adore and worship OUR Blessed Lord in an atmosphere of reverence and adoration? We aren’t asking you to come. You can sit in your NO pews and sing kumbaya all you want. Let us worship as we so desire. What’s the problem? The NO crowd can be tolerant of wayward Catholics so why can’t they tolerant of a Catholic who wants to pray with reverence. Is it me? Scratchin my head to understand why the NO crowd feels a need to jump into this conversation in the first place.
(1 John 4:20-21)
“If anyone says, “I love God’, but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.. This is the commandment we have form him; whoever loves God must also love his brother.”
What good is all the beauty of the TLM when your hearts are ugly?
~The world must be ruled by Love.
So John Fisher and Patrick and crew what do you say about the 80% number that is quoted at http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-worries-traditionalists/? That is a pretty amazing number. In fact, the more I think about it the more amazing it becomes to me. Even though I want to believe it, I have difficulty. The FFI is a conservative order and 80% of these conservatives want an intervention from a liberal Pope? This must be a serious problem indeed.
Of course, if there are any number of people in the FFI like the radical traditionalists in this combox or like the ones over at Rorate-Caeli then it truly would be hell, Roaring-Hedes.com. Living 24-7 in a traddy combox, even Dante couldn’t dream up an inferno like that! I know Franciscans are supposed to do penance but really!!! According to CNA it is only 20% of the FFI are super traditionalist but, of course, those would be the ones in power so that would be rather tough for those 80%. No wonder they appealed.
And can you imagine if this mentality is unleashed on the rest of the Church that is not so conservative? Wow!! No wonder the Pope has put an end to this.
Fr. Gieger, do you know anything about Fr. Alphonse who made the quote? Is he reliable? Is he biased one way or the other? Does he really represent the FFI officially?
One thing is clear though. Even if it just 60% it is not a minority who ruined it for a majority but rather a bold and courageous response by the Pope to the distress call of the majority. And he did it at great risk to his Papal dignity. Can we at least agree on this?
Ok, I went to bed after writing the above comment and could not sleep. Wow. What an obnoxius jerk I am! I apologize. What kept me awake most was Marie’s comment on Fr. Stephano’s announcement the one where he asks all the FFIs to obey the Pope’s decree. First, this is a very noble act and let’s face it, a difficult thing to do, naturally speaking, and says much about his character. Second, Marie’s comment mentions that hopefully this will calm things down on the other thread, I assume she means this one, and here I am doing the opposite. I apologize, many of the conservatives are clearly upset, have had some raw deals in the past and this situation is difficult. I do not mean to be so insensitive to this even if I do not condone the overreaction to this hurt, which should be the point I should focus on. God bless. Nice comment, Marie.
By the way, though, I do want an answer to my last question on that naughty post of mine. Can we agree that if the 80% number is correct, then this completely blows away all objections to the pope’s actions? Yes of no, please.
While I am up, I want to say a bit more about the liturgy and the Franciscans and the disparaging statements you made about the Franciscans in your first post.
“The Franciscans have been riddled with divisions since the begining because you are alawys trying to outdo each other in humility and poverty …This group exists in CONTRAST to your own. … As you know the number of different Franciscan groups that exist is a mystery known only to God!”
Your right, John!!
The Franciscans are a mess. And if there is a Franciscan group that is trying to add discipline to the celebration of the Mass, to straighten out the modern liturgical mess, then these Franciscans are certainly in contrast to any notion of francicans that I ever had.
Lets take your historical comment and make and analogy. If a group of franciscans processed into church the way they marched through history they would all come in orderly enough, although you would have keep Br. Juniper from happily skipping along to the Gregorian chant. St. Francis would be in the lead carry the cross but as they get half way down the isle they would break out into a squabble and by the time they get down to the sanctuary they will leave St. Francis all alone and be so angry with each other that they will split in two and go to opposite sides of the sanctuary and pout.
Now … I don’t know about you, but I don’t think this will make a good liturgy.
Then as mass gets started you will see other antics. Br. Sylvester will be staring out the windows at the trees. Br. Juniper will be sniffing the flowers on the altar. Br. Berard will be prostrate before Our Lady’s statue with his arms outstretched. Br. Giles will be strumming his guitar during the Gloria. Friar Tuck will be rubbing his tummy as he daydreams about lunch. Even St. Francis will be petting that bird that is always in his hand. And then there is that wolf at his feet. Don’t get me wrong. It is a really, really cute wolf. But lets face it, It doesn’t belong in the sanctuary. And then there are those unsightly patches that no amount of lace will hide.
Simply put, there are just real, down-to-earth, practical limitations to calling the Franciscans in to clean up the liturgy. The Benedictines on the other hand will come and tackle the problem like a pack of chihuahua’s on a pork chop and they wont leave crumbs like those Franciscans. Certain orders are good at doing certain things and it is good to keep this in mind. Franciscans trying to clean up the liturgy is a non starter and you can certainly understand the plight of poor Br. Juniper being asked to look formal and hold still.
This brings up another observation I had. Pope Francis is a bit liberal and this is especially true in regard to liturgy. His style even while a Cardinal was informal, the exact opposite of the liturgical formality of the conservatives in charge of the FFIs. And when this Cardinal gets elected pope he is the first one in the 800 years since St. Francis to take the name Francis. This ironic fact may be one of the greatest crosses in this trying time for the superiors who were removed. Although I certainly feel for them, I would say that in regard to the liturgy the Jesuit Pope Francis is more like the Franciscans than the FFI. And yet when Pope Francis insists that the FFI become more Franciscan in their liturgy he gets more guff for that than he does for removing the superior. Such are our times.
Anyways I am sure everyone is tired of me. And now I actually feel sleepy.
See “Update 2” in the body of the post, above.