I admit it. I have no sense of humor, especially since something this absurd NEVER happens!
Mary Victrix
I admit it. I have no sense of humor, especially since something this absurd NEVER happens!
Mary Victrix 
Well, true, there aren’t too many men that are this ridiculous, thankfully … and I’m quite sure there are few women in this day and age like this one who wouldn’t have marinated the buffoon (instead of the steaks), grilled him and thrown him into the tossed salad!! You want fixings dear? I’ll give you some fixings. This is why a lousy husband would bring out very unChristian things in his wife … and a woos of a wife will surely never change the man! (And vice versa, of course)
All I can say is…that couple needs about a dozen kids…particularly the dad…
this was kinda funny, but unfortunately an exaggerated example of men who refuse to grow up, which is more the norm than not these days! It was also a not so exaggerated example of women who don’t “get it” with their husbands and appreciate what they have and are provided…
all said and done – guys really still don’t get it with women…esp. when they put steaks on the grill and grab their beer and travel to their nothing box while they seem oblivious to everything going on in the kitchen!
I don’t know ANY men like that, nor do I know any woman who would put up with a man like that.
Well….I actually do know some people like this; sorry to be a nay-sayer. I have seen this sort of behavior in families where the husband and wife do not know and/or are not open to the fullness of the truth and therefore are operating on what knowledge they do have in order to try and live what they think is a “Christian marriage”. They both end up feeling pretty frustrated but not willing to really solve the problem, which boils down to pride, as it usually does, and the reality of it is that they need to become Catholics, read Father Angelo’s blog, and discover the true meaning of Christian masculinity and femininity. my 2 cents.
OM- I agree with you about the 12 kids- like in the movie Fireproof if you saw it, part of the problem is the lack of kids and probably a contraceptive mentality.
Narcissus or another name for this would be Narkissos
This video is totally stupid, but the way it depicts an “evangelical Christian” “man” is only a slight exaggeration of the image that many of them shoot for. I especially like the way he says “grace” before meals. (I mean “hate” not “like” but you know what I mean.) This video says more about what modern evangelicalism has done to the culture than it does even about the roles of men and women, but that is of course part of the whole.
I just discovered your blog while looking for a quote from one of C. S. Lewis’ Narnia books, the one where he writes “No warrior scolds. Courteous words or else hard knocks are his only language,” (The Last Battle).
I read some of your postings, such as the essay “Gender Unbending” and though I think you’re heading in the right direction, you are still way too soft on the pervasive, implicit feminism of our culture that has castrated the Catholic Church along with the evangelicals (and especially the pentecostals, were they ever anything but a bunch of women shamans?).
The Orthodox Christians and Orthodox Jews appear to be the only ones who have pushed back against this feminist assault with any idea of strategy, but even the Greek Orthodox in some places (especially West Coast middle class congregations) have yielded to it shamelessly, letting women come to services with uncovered heads and wearing male clothing (pants instead of dresses), even letting them read or chant the scriptures in church. These are externals, yes, but an external is only the visible half of a whole reality, the other half of which is an intangible yet effectual force.
I commend your efforts, brothers, but I am afraid that for you it is a last holdout, and you will not prevail. The Roman Catholic Church of today is a sort of “last days of Byzantium”… Just as the Greeks fought valiantly on the walls of Constantinople against the final Turkish assault, our last emperor himself dying in the battle, and lost… without any help from the West, so you will lose the battle with feminism, which is the new Turkishness, without any help from the East. After their defeat, the Greeks who could, immigrated to the West, launching the Renaissance. After your defeat, will some of you find refuge here in the Christian East? and what will you bring?
Ti ypermacho Stratigo ta nikitiria
os litrothisa ton dhinon efcharistiria
anagrapho Si, i polis Sou, Theotoke
Allos echousa to kratos aprosmachiton
ek pandion me kindhinon eleftheroson
ina krazo Si, Chaire Nymphi anymphefte
To Thee, invincible Champion,
we offer thanks for saving Your City from disaster,
and since Thou art so powerful,
free me from all dangers, as I cry out to Thee,
Rejoice, O Bride unwedded!
They will have refuge but it will only be through our Lady. Christ will not be defeated nor will She.Because what you do not understand Sir is that Christ has already won. Their efforts have not gone unnoticed nor have they been in vain. I commend the Friars for all that they do, for all that they believe and for all that they hold dear. Perhaps what you do not understand Sir is that it has just begun………
Father, Please remember these words
Are You Not under My Shadow and Protection.
“Because what you do not understand Sir is that Christ has already won.”
Darlene, I do not argue with other believers, nor do I debate with women as it is not meet, but I wonder whom you are addressing in your comment, and especially with the ridiculous inference quoted above.
Women in Christ do not presume to correct men, not their husbands, nor their other kin, nor especially strangers.
Witness the behavior of our Lady Theotokos. Even at Cana, she did not tell her son what to do, only, “οἶνον οὐκ ἔχουσιν,” that is, “they have no wine.” She then waited, but trusted that He would do something, trusted the Man under whose care and protection she dwelt, so much that she could instruct the servants with perfect certainty, “Ὅ,τι ἂν λέγῃ ὑμῖν ποιήσατε,” that is, “whatever He tells you, do.”
Not through our Lady, who is the first of Christians and ever-virgin Mother of God, but through Jesus Christ, are all things: creation itself, the cross, the burial, the third-day resurrection, the ascension, the sitting at the right hand of the Father, the coming again in glory and the judgment, the new and everlasting heavens and earth.
In her fiat to the good news brought by the archangel the sin of Eve’s rebellion was reversed, and through the gate of her womb the Savior came forth. We follow her in saying “Amen” to whatever God presents us, and in so doing, like her, we reverse the curse of Adam, and manifest to the world Christ among us, and proclaim the Kingdom of Heaven.
And yes, with you I affirm, He has already won the victory. “…if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)
Mr. Arsenios … may I ask to what denomination you belong? May I also ask for what purpose, besides carrying babies, you feel women were created? If strictly to raise children, for what reason do women sometimes have higher IQ’s then men?
I do understand the point you’re making with the damage that feminism has done, but I fear you have leaned towards another extremism. Just my 2cents here and it is okay to receive feedback from women … we were placed here on this earth together … to help one another on this road to holiness.
Mr. Arsenios:
You mention that women in Christ do not presume to correct men. You forget dear Sir, Joan of Arc! She not only corrected men, but she also directed these male soldiers on the battlefied and her sacrifice saved a nation. The Church’s history evidences woman saints who instructed even Popes in the affairs of the Church. Although I believe that feminism is a modern evil destroying families and homes, I do not discount that the true voice of God within a woman’s soul is without value! Women were created to be man’s helpmate, and that includes having a voice that men should listen to. While at the same time, I do agree that a woman should be also be open the voice of God within her husband’s soul knowing that she can trust him, PROVIDED that he is in a state of grace TRULY living the gospel in all his affairs.
My name is not Mr Arsenios. It is Mr Aristides.
I don’t belong to any denomination. I belong to the Church, that is, Orthodoxy, specifically the Greek Orthodox Church.
If you want to know why women were created, read the Bible. This year I will continue writing for my blog “Man Over Woman” if I have time. You can read what amounts to a manifesto there. That should answer some of your questions. (http://man-over-woman.blogspot.com/) But honestly, read the bible. I would like to say, “Ask your husband,” but if you have one he is probably ignorant of the bible, or under the influence of feminist teaching.
Women can have higher IQs than men, but so what? An IQ test measures only what we want to measure. A higher or lower IQ score is less a measure of personal reality than one’s body weight.
We, men and women, were placed on earth together, that is true, but man was created first, woman after, and her function is to be his helper, not the other way round. When involved in a biblically ordered marriage, a man and a woman function as they were created to function, and there is high honor for both, if they follow Jesus, who is the mediator between them in everything. Remember, man is head of woman, but he is also the bridegroom who sacrifices himself for her, to make her holy. But she must let him; she must be obedient to him in everything.
The slide into feminism didn’t happen overnight or in one place. We all have to examine ourselves and our thinking on these issues, if we care enough to see how badly we have been misled.
You fear that I am leaning toward another extremism. Well, it is in complete opposition to feminism, so in that sense it is an extreme, but the true extremism opposing feminism is actually Islam, and it is Islam which will be used to brutally overcome feminism and its corollary, gay rights.
I wish things didn’t have to come to this, but our culture is very, very sick, and it is past the point of even considering coming to the hospital, the Orthodox Church, to be healed. Like Christian in The Pilgrim’s Progress, it is now up to the individual to recognize that he or she is living in the City of Destruction, and to escape before the chastisement sweeps everything away.
Thanks for your comment.
Rachel, I profoundly disagree on the point of women like Joan of Arc and Catherine of Siena taking leadership positions over men. The pope is himself a supreme example of the spiritual rot of effeminacy, which produces in the religious sphere religious systems based on the “woman spirit,” sometimes known as “the Divine Mother,” a lying religious environment full of false visions, hearings, teachings, and miracles.
Read the Bible. Woman must listen to and learn from man everything about God. When woman is alone she is informed by satan, as Eve was misled by the serpent. When she advises man to do what the serpent tells her, he falls if he obeys.
Every religion started by women is patently spiritualistic, shamanistic, soulish rather than spiritual. Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventism, the Mariavites (in Poland), Foursquare Church and pentecostalism in the main—all are effeminate and spring from woman’s native “spirituality,” which is no spirituality at all. Without the revelation given by God to men, we would all be like the Babylonians and others with their temple prostitutes and supersitious earth magic.
Woman is part of man, not the other way round. This is not to devalue her, but to give her her rightful place, to be folded into the man, her source of spiritual and physical well-being.
“Women were created to be man’s helpmate, and that includes having a voice that men should listen to.”
With his permission, she may advise him, nothing more. It is the “should listen to” that is absolutely and catastrophically wrong.
Thanks for your comment.
“I do agree that a woman should be also be open the voice of God within her husband’s soul knowing that she can trust him, PROVIDED that he is in a state of grace TRULY living the gospel in all his affairs.”
No, the woman should be obedient to the man in everything. We are here speaking of Christian marriage. To say that the woman is open to the possibility that God may speak to her husband “PROVIDED that he is in a state of grace, and TRULY living the gospel in all his affairs,” is untenable, because it places a prior condition on God’s commandments. This is like saying that you need honor your father and your mother, PROVIDED they deserve it.
I understand where your concern is coming from, but it is the same place that made Eve doubt the word of God that her husband taught her, that the fruit of that tree must not be eaten, because death would result. God never spoke that to Eve, only to Adam. She had to believe and obey, or else not. You know her choice, and what came of it.
“And now, O Master, Lord our God, send down Your heavenly Grace upon these Your servants,
(Name) and (Name), and grant unto this woman to be in all things subject unto the man, and to this
Your servant to be at the head of the woman that they live according to Your Will.”
– Petition in the Orthodox Wedding Service
Sir, I do believe that woman were created to be the husbands help MEET but I also believe that God loves us all the same. Yes, woman should have their place in the home. But I also believe that men should treat their wives with respect and love. How would Jesus have spoken to Mary? How would Jesus have spoken to Mary Madaleine? I can not fanthom the thought of our Lord telling Mary to sit down and shut up.Yes, I do believe Mary knew her place.She was indeed humble and meek. I also believe that we are living in difficult times and that society has truly confused the gender. But I also believe that we were created equal in the eyes of God. God wants ALL souls to get to heaven. Souls do not have a gender.Correct me if I’m wrong Father. That is what I’ve always been taught.
My final thought to all of this is that we were all created for one thing and one thing only. To know, love and serve God. By the way, I am subject unto God and God alone not man.
Finally you state: This is like saying that you need honor your father and your mother, PROVIDED they deserve it. I think what Rachel was trying to say was that if they are not in the state of Grace. If your husband wants you to rob a bank do you listen to him. I certainly hope not because he is asking you to sin and therefore he is not in a state of grace and you are not to be obedient. Obedience unto God and to God alone! If your husband is in a state of Grace and he is a Godly man then yes we should be obedient unto him becuase God dwells in him. All for the love of Jesus and Mary. I do believe that we are all on the same path in our beliefs but it is very much difficult to understand certain statements on the internet. P.S. Thank you for the lovely Petition.
Dear Mr. Aristedes,
Well, I have stopped participating in such debates as of late because, as a dear friend of mine (who happens to be an Evangelical man not at ALL like the buffoon) says, it’s hard to get into discussions with some people because you’re not starting in the same place. You have to spend the time paring down to some common denominator before you can build back up again!! We clearly are not starting from the same place here.
I do hope Fr. Angelo can say some words but he’s a very busy man. I will say this, you state that we should read Scripture and you make statements about our husbands whom you know not … and many of us who frequent this blog do indeed study Scripture! Unfortunately even scripture scholars cannot always agree on the correct interpretations. (Which, btw, is what the teaching Church is all about, is it not?) I think the only correct position to take is one of complete humility. We all depend entirely on God’s incredible mercy. We cannot lean on our own understanding, as it has been said. That’s not to say that we should stop trying to understand, but it is to say that once you feel you’ve got all the answers, you’re probably the furthest from God’s wisdom than ever before.
So, over the years of befriending many wonderful people from different denominations and non-denominations, I have come to believe that we all knock and knock and must have Faith that the Lord is leading us to Him. But, we’re starting at different starting points, as my friend said, so we travel on different tributaries that are connected to that straight and narrow path! This is not moral relativism which implies that there is no objective truth, because we here all believe that their surely is. It’s just good old-fashioned humility. God bless.
Thank you, Darlene and Jen, for your comments. They are appreciated, and I can see you are struggling to understand my points.
Darlene, what you’re saying in your first paragraph is basically correct and doesn’t contradict anything I am saying. Do you think I am advising men to treat their women with contempt? Certainly not! But there is no such thing as equality between men and women, but we’re not here thinking of political equality. Men are just ordained by God to be the head of women, no more, no less than the scriptures teach. Yet that idea has been so dreadfully chipped away and mutilated that even women of good will like yourself are still confused about what is meant.
What you seem to be saying in your second paragraph is misguided thinking. “I am subject to God and to God alone, not man.” Untrue. Just as we prove that we love God whom we have not seen by loving other people whom we do see, we also prove that we are subject (that is, obedient) to God by following His earthly order, being subject to one another, according to the scriptures. Woman is subject to man. Man is subject to other men who are placed over him in the social order. We are not talking about a pecking order. That is barbaric. We are saying that in Christian society, women are part of their men and need not struggle in the world for power, authority or similar things. Woman is included in man. That’s why words like “our holy fathers” refer to our holy mothers as well, and “brethren” includes sisters in Christ.
Man and woman (in marriage) are one being with two souls and two sets of functions. Women create and maintain the inner world. Men create and maintain the outer world. The scriptural order of man over woman has many implications, but in every case God has provided men and women with their proper freedom and dignity, when they follow His commandments and the order with which He made us. It’s intrinsic to our being, yet we have rebelled against it. First, women wanting to be as men are in every aspect, which is against nature; second, seeing women as a group successfully rebelling against God’s order, sexual deviants have followed suit, and with women’s assistance. Both see men as the enemy, not to be trusted, unless we comply with and cave in to their demands. This is simply wrong.
Woman must be subject to man in everything, but of course anyone, man or woman, must follow the commandments. A man has no rights over a woman that God has not given him. He cannot order a woman to break a commandment. I’m not saying this wouldn’t happen, and history proves that wrongful authority in society at large and in the Church in particular has committed horrible crimes. These are not, however, crimes of the Church, but crimes against it. In the same way, a man who will not be corrected by the koinonia or abide by it can cause grief to his family members and neighbors. A woman can appeal to the koinonia to correct her husband. She is not a robot slave. This is how it should work, but it simply doesn’t at the current time. The Church falls down in places and seems not to understand its responsibility. All this has to now be relearned and reapplied.
Sorry to have written at such length. You’re right. The internet is not usually a good place to discuss these things. There are also some grave semantic differences between Roman Catholics and Orthodox, as well as between men and women. I don’t usually dialog with women. Men should study and discuss scriptures only with other men. Women can do the same with other women, but that is not really necessary. It’s a disorderly imitation of a male function, and often has bad results. Women are to be taught by their husbands and fathers, and not be left alone to work things out with other women. In dialog with their male kin, women can find out the things they need to know, and the men can also learn more about women this way in a non-competitive encounter. Departing from this order, women find it harder to respect their men, and the men find it harder to love their women as they should, and family dysfunction is the result, a very serious sickness.
Jen, only one thing I have to respond to your saying, “even scripture scholars cannot always agree on the correct interpretations.” The bible in our own language can be understood by almost anyone for 90% of the things it teaches. As for the other 10%, the Church is there to help us out. Scripture scholars often muddy the waters rather than clear things up, because they are satisfied to merely teach, and try to get you to accept their opinions on things that should be accepted as the bible plainly states them in simplicity. Besides that, the Word of God is Jesus Christ Himself, and when you faithfully follow Him, He teaches you whether through reading scripture, or praying, or the works you do in the world, etc. That’s why it is that despite the confessional aspects of the kind of church they belong to, all true followers of Jesus usually find they’re on the same page about most things when they work together, person to person.
The issues of feminism and its bad effects on society and on the Church are not going away anytime soon, because they can only be opposed by positive lifestyle choices made by one person at a time. Those choices do need to be informed. Hence, we do our best to point people back to the scriptures and the holy tradition as applicable to every situation. A lot of good people, men and women, are groping for the truth, and no efforts however small can be gainsaid. Every little but counts.
The possibility is that we may not have enough time to turn ourselves around. This is where we need the help of the Theotokos and the saints, who with us continue to work and pray for the coming of the Kingdom of God.
Dear Mr. Aristedes,
You have too much time on your hands. Better that it be spent in prayer praying for us women than attempting to convince us that the muslims are the only hope at correcting matters.
I WILL NOT obey a man if he is in a state of blatant sin and expects that I should follow his directives. God first, as my allegiance and obedience is to Him. Too many men have led this lady astray and practically destroyed my life and my hopes for heaven because I listened and obeyed them. Today I listen to the Lord. Should God see fit to send a holy man into my life, then that would be a different story. He – I would obey. I am not opposed to obeying one’s husband. I am opposed to obeying a man who will not obey God! I think that many Catholic women would agree with me in this regard.
Rachel
Dear All,
I will write in a separate post on this matter in the coming day or so. I will have to respectfully disagree with much that has been said here on both sides.
Arsenios,
I am curious as to why your blog does not permit comments, since you are so generous with your opinions on this one. I mean that inquiry respectfully. Am I missing something?
Dear Rachel,
I think you make a valid point in that not all women are (1) married or (2) have a father so to say that these women are left out in the cold is really not Christian at all!! I’m not sure Mr. A would really advocate for this but in a backward sense, he has. And, of course, many women are married to very imperfect men who would take some of Mr. A’s beliefs and engage in a power trip where the women would soon be very abused … physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Clearly during the time of our Lord this was the case. Surely we shouldn’t want to head back to that.
Yet, there are things Mr. A says that are very accurate, IMHO. Feminism has warped our heads and I will be perfectly humble and honest to say that my head is still trying to sort out the damage. I do feel that men have lost their rightful position as heads of their families and I will admit that it’s a huge struggle of mine … I have surely come a long way, but I also have miles to go before I sleep!! As Father Angelo once told me, God did indeed place these men (our husbands if we’re married) in a position where to follow them, IS to follow God. i believe this to mean, and Father can correct me if I’m wrong, that sometimes we will obediently follow our husbands through a mistake he has made! For, this is not saying that our husbands ARE God but that God has placed them in this position regardless of their imperfections. (Clearly, we aren’t to rob a bank ….) So, Rachel, if you’re married, then to follow your husband IS to follow God in a very ‘different’ sort of sense. This does assume much, however, as you pointed out. This is where I must whole-heartedly disagree with Arsenios. Our men are NOT perfect and we, as women, have been placed here to help guide them and at times, i feel, correct them on their journey to holiness just as much as they must guide/correct us!! This, to me, is why marriage is Sacramental. We are saying that I will become a better man and woman and achieve holiness MORE SO because of my spouse than without my spouse. As an aside, there are many men who, if it weren’t for their wives, would never bother opening a Bible or going to Church. So, to exclude women would be detrimental to most men, I should think. We can lead each other to heaven or to hell.
Again, I do like some things that Mr.A has said. Especially:
Besides that, the Word of God is Jesus Christ Himself, and when you faithfully follow Him, He teaches you whether through reading scripture, or praying, or the works you do in the world, etc. That’s why it is that despite the confessional aspects of the kind of church they belong to, all true followers of Jesus usually find they’re on the same page about most things when they work together, person to person.
I do not agree with his thoughts on Scripture interpretation … I always use the example of Baptism. We have so many scriptural interpretations of this one Sacrament … infant or adult only? With water or is water not really necessary? Do the words, “In the Name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit” need to be included or not? etc etc etc This is where the teaching Church is vital, to me. To insult all scripture scholars because they have not come to the same conclusion is uncharitable. Again, we must remain humble here and accept the authority of the Church that Christ founded. Nothing else makes sense to me, personally. We are all just too darned imperfect to think we can read Scripture and pray earnestly and all come to the same conclusions. We need a tangible, human guide to keep us on the same page in our journey or we will stray … as has happened beyond our wildest imaginations.
I await, with baited breath, to read Father Angelo’s comments here.
God bless all of you for continuing this dialogue … most people don’t ever want the confrontation! I am thankful that as a woman, I am being allowed to participate in such discussions lest my soul wind up in grave danger.
Just as Christ is the Head of the Church, the man is the head of the home, and the woman is the heart of the home. We share this belief.
All people owe obedience; to God first, and then to all in lawful authority over him or her, unless that person to whom one owes obedience instructs one to commit sin. At this point one no longer owes obedience, at least to that request. This obedience owed includes ones husband. Choose one carefully.
Mr. A makes some valid comments here. I would like to toss out the idea that when he first commented here, and included negative and even insulting words regarding the Holy Catholic Church, that perhaps his experience has been with catholic “lite” and he has not seen or experienced the true Church. Certainly one can think of circumstances from which he may have gathered some of his opinions.
I hope that Mr. A can understand how when women feel as if our “home” is being attacked unfairly, we may sometimes respond with passion to defend it. Our home is the Holy Catholic Church, which leads us to Heaven, with Christ as its head, and the Holy Father as its visible head on earth.
In all things we are to emulate The Immaculate. In our thoughts, words, deeds, and posts as the case may be. Saint Clare of Assisi, pray for us.
Fr Angelo, thanks for responding. My blog does not allow comments for two reasons. First, it is not really open as yet; it is just, shall we say, a kind of trailer, as a movie trailer, to alert any who find it, that more “will be coming soon.” Second, as you can see from the date of the second post, it’s been months since I’ve added to it. I have the raw material to serialise as posts for about six months, but simply no time to publish it. In this regard, Rachel is very, very presumptuous to say that I have too much time on my hands, though she is wholly correct to say I should spend more time in prayer. As a matter of fact, because I do spend as much time as I do in prayer, I don’t have much time to work on the Man Over Woman blog. One other reason why I don’t allow comments there is, once the comments are open, I don’t think I would have enough time and motivation to respond to them. I am more a man of prayer and a missionary than I am a debater. I would rather admit a theoretical defeat by default than continue hammering at an opponent until victory. To me that is uncharitable. I have nothing to prove, except that “Jesus Christ is the winner,” (ΙΣ ΧΣ ΝΙΚΑ), as my humble yiayia (grandmother) used to say, and that I can prove by the testimony of my life and work, not by my dialectic. Arsenios Aristides is a pseudonym for this project. I have a number of other blogs under my actual name, all of them on Christian topics.
I can understand why many women go wrong without intending to and arrive at feminist notions, some of them even persecuting righteous husbands while praying and engaging in righteous work themselves. They experience some dissatisfaction or unfulfillment or are subject to womanly weakness or self-love (just as any man can also be subject to, it is effeminacy in both sexes) and, seeing other instances around them or in the media of women who really are being subjected to abuse by their unrighteous husbands, they feel justified in what they do. This is a very common spiritual malady, especially among pentecostals, where womanish religion is in control to the subjection of men and indulgence in fantasy, along with a hypocritical triumphalist mentality. It doesn’t help matters that the Church by and large has become part of the world system, rejects the truth of the divine order and many other truths, while leaving us only the sentimental preoccupation with harmless traditions. The Church then cannot exert itself in the koinonia to educate and train on a practical level all men to be the husbands God intends them to be, so that the women can fold into them. Instead, the Church is satisfued with men and women merely going through the rites, attending services, and making pledges—in short, being christianised, but not becoming followers of Jesus Christ, the eternal and divine Son and Word of God.
This will be my last comment on this blog. I want to say to Jen, you are definitely on the right track and I wish you, as well as everyone with whom I have interacted here, more grace and light of Christ. The only matters in which I feel I must disagree with you are those in which you have assumed the worst of me and what I have been saying. If something seems totally unreasonable to oneself, one must try to see that to the other person the same thing would be totally unreasonable—that is, if both are assumed to be Christians. Wife beating wrong? Of course! Following a deviant husband in a criminal act? Absolutely not! Contradicting a husband or arguing with him in front of children? Certainly not! Being allowed to express an opinion on anything whatsoever to one’s husband? Of course! Following a course of action a husband has forbidden? Absolutely not! Bringing a fundamental disagreement or disorder to the attention of the koinonia, in the case of Roman Catholics, to the attention of the magisterium? Certainly!
Jen, you really are “right on” in what you say in your second paragraph, up to the last few sentences talking about how if it weren’t for their wives, most men would not even open the bible or go to church. That is true in many denominations, and that is the shame of Christianity, but one of the reasons for it is that churches, especially the Protestant ones, have effeminized, rejected the divine order of Man over Woman, and are now places of spiritual decadence. In Orthodoxy, both Christian and Jewish, we find that this is not so much a problem. Men are still seen to be the priests of their families, leading them in worship and bible reading at home, teaching them by word and example. It is from this base that I am coming.
Time to leave for the Divine Liturgy.
Christ is born! Glorify Him!
Postscript: Thanks, mrs., for your last comment, all very true. I apologise for giving offense to some at the outset of my comments. There is no resolution to the conflict between Roman Catholicism and Romanity (Orthodoxy) in our hands, but out of obedience to Christ, we can nonetheless love one another.
Grace and peace, through the prayers of the Theotokos and all the saints.
Perhaps, I should refrase my statement. What I meant by,” I am subject to God and to God alone, not man, was somewhat a misunderstanding. I meant that We are to love man, hate sin. I can not serve and love man if I do not love God first. That is what I meant by my statement earlier. When we are baptized God dwells in our souls. Therefore when we love man we love God. I hope that makes sense to you. I’m trying very hard to explain myself and perhaps I’m not doing a very good job. I think I will leave this one alone and hope that Father can enlighten us all. Thank you Mr. Aristedes for some good points.
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Arsenios,
You are always welcome to comment here.
I have posted on this matter separately. Link immediately above this comment.