We needed a researcher to tell us this?
Notice that for the professor a long courtship is more than one date. The saints and holy doctors discouraged truly long courtships because they often lead to unnecessary occasions of sin, but I definitely would agree that courtships should be longer than one date.
Besides having the advantage of helping a person make a better decision about one’s mate, such “long” courtships (more than one date) have the advantage of allowing enough time for a sacramental marriage ceremony, which, if you follow the logic, would also allow the couple to enter into their union in the state of grace and benefit fully from the sacrament before the marriage is consummated. Oh, by the way, that would also mean that the union would please God as well.
Isn’t it neat how that works?
An ancilliary thought to this is how the modern media and academia has convinced the poor slobs in front of their computer monitors and t.v.’s that they really don’t know anything of value unless it is confirmed by a double blind study. This fact is a fundamental element of the very successful challenge of secularism to traditional values.
Mary Victrix 
Okay, the mathematician in me cannot swallow this very well. Whenever statistics are the basis for a discussion such as this, my hair begins to curl because it is darn near impossible to get any REAL accuracy. First of all, who participates in these types of samplings? Does the average Christian family bother to sit down and fill out the questionnaire? How about the bored, single sensationalist after downing a six-pack? Much more likely. And, just how scewed are the questions? What defines a long-term relationship? What defines a successful marriage afterwards? Are questions any deeper than *sex* even considered in the successful marriages? This guy talks about couples like a breeder would talk about breeding his dogs. .. when’s the proper time to mate them?
These blokes, as Father stated, are taking something of *value* and trying to prove something with statistical analysis. Really, people need only look up and down their street to see how many marriages have dissolved .. how much infidelity there is. (This, I’m afraid, crosses all denominations.) The real problem is that people don’t know how to make commitments anymore. This is seen in medical schools, law schools, marriages and should I state the obvious .. the priesthood? So, in finding a good husband, one needs to see what this man’s ideal to commitment is. Regardless of how long they’ve dated … but the fact that they can date for a while and have the patience to wait tells something about one’s character. When the going gets tough, the new slogan is to just get the heck out … the tough no longer get going. Why? Because suffering is no longer a part of one’s upbringing so once a person begins to suffer, they bail out. My husband is one of 6 kids. He’s the 5th of the 6. Do you know that there’s not one divorce in his family? We’ve been married for 21 yrs and that’s nothing compared to some of his siblings. This is NOT because there haven’t been difficulties in any of the marriages. Some of his siblings have made it through alcoholism and infidelity as well as bancruptcy and all the things that normally crush a marriage. But … his siblings came here as immigrants. Suffering and self-denial were an everyday reality for them. They learned that when the going got tough, they needed to roll up their sleeves and get going!
So ..it seems I’ve digressed! But, to me, the reason for a couple eventually getting married (or finding a good guy) has to do with CHARACTER. The fact that he can wait, as the article stated, is ONE sign of his character. But, it takes two to tango doesn’t it? I’m assuming men want to find a woman with character as well???? The article seems to imply that men only want to find someone to mate.
See what happens when we strip God out of our logic and analysis of things? We get something with bits and pieces of truth but still all bundled up into a big lie.
I think this article indirectly shows the need for things such as Father’s *old* weekly Standing Fast talks about the decline in male values such as chivalry. I recently read a book called, “Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men” by Leonard Sax, MD, PhD.
The book was excellent, I felt .. this author is a syndicated columnist and receives TONS of letters from women complaining about the troubles with finding a decent male these days. There’s been a breakdown in men being … well, MEN.
The article reminded me of this book that some of you might be interested in. Having two sons, it caught my eye in the library one week. 😉
Ok, Courtship of 3 Dates.
1…2…3 strikes your out! 😛 *cough*
Who needs dating? Grab yer partner swing’er round! YEEE HAWWWW!!!
Disgusting.
All this namby pamby dating, mating and “partner selection” stuff makes me barf. I’ve got selection criteria for ya – you want to court (not date!) my daughters – prove to me that you’re a Catholic in the state of grace, that your one aim is to get my daughter and your children to heaven, and that you have the income necessary so that she can raise those children to be holy and prepared for life and you’ve got my vote.
But if you visit my daughters and don’t fulfill the minimum requirements laid out here – and/or if you have any metal objects passing through anything on your body that were not put there as a result of a sports injury, then you will leave the premises immediately… weaving in serpentine fashion would be advisable – once you pass the post-box I promise not to shoot you in any vital organ. And don’t show up again, or I will dust off my surgical skills and make it so that singing the high notes in choir practice will come much more naturally, if you get my drift……
Knight Errant,
I really agree with you – and Serge has had similar thoughts on the matter! (Different torture methods but the same sense of humor.) However, the only thing that makes me NOT say what you say is that a couple of my friends who are now faithful, conservative Catholics, started dating when they weren’t. One friend in particular, was raised a quasi-protestant and dated a man who was raised in an orthodox Catholic home. She said it was her now husband’s loving, well-versed and patient mother that helped her to make her conversion to Catholicism. She’s now far more informed and obedient than most Catholics I know. Thank goodness her in-laws did not forbid the relationship. In fact, I think the opportunities for this are far greater today than ever … most kids aren’t brought up with much of anything, even if they go to Church most weekends!
Do you know that my husband has asked 6th graders in his CCD class what religion they are and they do not know that they are Roman Catholic?? Eh? So, they are ripe for someone from another religion who IS committed to evangelize them. It works in reverse .. we must not be afraid! But, we do need to be VERY afraid of the dog-breeding mentality that seems to be so prevalant.
I just started reading “The Thrill of the Chaste” … it’s disturbing, to be honest. I hope I can finish it but I really don’t know. In my craziest younger days I would have never thought as this woman did. This is not to judge her or condemn her … it just shows how naive I can be and makes me worry about my own girls. I pray I am not naive there!
Men (Fathers) need to take the point when dealing with potential suitors, especially with their daughters. In my experience (and I’ve had some in this matter) women tend to look at relationships from an emotional perspective, while (good) men generally have a minimum standard that won’t be compromised. No offense Jen (I mean none, honestly) but I think that hoping for a change of heart on the part of a potential spouse is a trap. While it is true that there are many examples of conversion due to the example of the spouse, there are also many (probably more) examples of spouses that have not converted and continue to engage in the lifestyle that they led before marriage. In my opinion, it is extremely foolish for a person to enter into marriage with the hope that their spouse will change, especially with regard to uncompromisable issues like faith & religion, marriage & divorce, and life issues – to name a few. That’s not to say that prudence shouldn’t be employed. If there is good indication that a potential spouse is open to truth, then perhaps there may be some wiggle room, but that is also a precarious situation, IMO. A person must approach a potential spouse as if they will NOT change. Life is hard enough even when spouses are on the same page.
If you’ll allow a bit of a tangent… Parents also need to not be afraid of saying no to their kids, even the older kids. I’ve had conversations (interviews) with potential suitors where I’ve asked their opinion about when divorce is a viable option, for example. And when the answer came back as something like “when the spouses just cannot get along anymore”, I charitably explain why that was a bad answer, then I shake hands and say goodbye. When my child asks to see the person again, I say no and explain why. (I usually get the “but he’s really nice” rebuttal, to which I sarcastically respond, “so is satan til he has you.” Another popular trump card that gets played by maturing youths is the old “what if God put him in my life to convert him?” To which I usually respond something like, “if you had the faith to convert him then you would have first told him that you absolutely will not date him until he converts.”) There is a risk in saying no. For example, the kid can tell dad (& mom) to go fly a kite, leave and pursue the precipitous relationship. In that case I think it’s better to not endorse a bad situation and allow the rebellious youth to suffer the consequence of their decision. I think that parents today are afraid of their kids making bad decisions like these, but they don’t want to push the issue due to the inevitable drama, so they reluctantly allow it. But, as parents, it’s our job to suffer the drama and just say no.
Oh, and by the way Knight Errant… The last suitor that visited my home met me and my beloved Betsy as I walked in from hunting. Betsy is my Winchester 30-30 model 94. As they say, first impressions set the tone…
Steve, your right about that 30-30. My son is still scared to death of you. LOL
Darlene… blahhahahahahhaaaaaa
Great move Steve, keep em nervous!Personally I was going to conduct the “interview” whilst sharpening my knives. Punctuating the questions with the sssccchhlllicct, sssccchhlllict of the blade on the stone should be a serious “attention sustainer”.
And Jen, your point is well taken – When my wife married me I was an unbaptized, unrepentant and undeserving pagan. Well I’m still undeserving, but at least through her perseverance I am now baptized and repentant!
However, I don’t think I am prepared to take that chance with my daughters. Robin’s parents were willing, perhaps through ignorance, neglect, or maybe even hope to take a risk with me, but I don’t think I can take that risk on behalf of those whom God has put under my protection. For that I will be called to account on the day of judgment, and I do not intend to take a chance on that.
Behold.
Darlene,
I did have one conversation with your eldest son about my daughter, and a few other things. He’s a good kid. Justified fear is a sign of wisdom.
Courtin’ attire.
I remember that talk with Darlene’s son, and I remember the talk with a young man who was interested in our eldest daughter who came to see her at Mass. Steve pulled him aside after Mass and asked him a few questions. We didn’t really hear from him again. Our daughter ran into him recently and he told her that it was a good thing they didn’t pursue any relationship at that time because he was going through a difficult time and made some really bad choices and it would have been bad for her…. Yay dad!
Uh huh. And now he’s over his “difficult time” and he’s reformed. Saintly. Pure. Cats and dogs now get along at his house. Niether does it rain there.
I was once a young boy too, you know. Been there.
Love the courtin’ attire, Master Paul.
STeve and Knight Errant,
Sorry it’s taken so long to respond to your comments. No offense was taken by any of your comments at all. I do agree with what you both say about not wanting to take the risk with our children marrying non-catholics. I agree that the majority of people who marry someone of a different religion probably don’t successfully convert them. From there, it’s a tough road full of painful compromises and sacrifices. However, our children eventually reach an age where they make their choices … some that we will like and approve of and some which we might not like so much. It’s one thing to *interrogate* a teenage boy who wants to date your daughter. It’s another thing to interrogate, say, a 30-yr-old man possibly who wants to date your 25-yr-old. They’re both adults. I’m not sure what I’ll think about that type of thing in another few yrs when my oldest is in her 20’s. We’ve laid the foundation, we pray, we guide and then we must let her make her choices (with her mistakes) and give our opinion if asked or if absolutely necessary and then … keep praying! (Easier said than done, I will admit.) I think our children will probably bring up religion enough in a conversation that if a *suitor* wasn’t interested in the Catholic Faith, he or she would eventually RUN far, far away.
Knight Errant, you say that you cannot take that risk with your daughters. I’m saying, hopefully we’ll have that choice but we might not! My brother wound up getting his girlfriend pregnant and had a quick wedding which, because the girl was previously married and hadn’t had it annulled, they couldn’t marry in the Catholic Church. My parents were devastated … mostly embarrassed, I think. But, it was stated that they did things ars-backwards and that we all hoped his now wife would get an annulment and have the marriage blessed in the Catholic Church. Because we all stood in support, she did get the annulment and they did have it blessed in the Church and they are still married. So …my point is, stuff happens that we don’t have control over! (My brother was 26 and his then girlfriend was 28 .. .they were living in another state from my parents!) So, we state our disappointment if necessary and then do as your in-laws did and embrace the new family member and coax them back into the fold. I see Christ in that very much. Maybe I’ll change my mind about this one day, but for now it’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it! 🙂
Have a good weekend.
check out dawneden.blogspot for Jan 19, 2009 for some thoughts on this